Caveat emptor!

[Ephialtis]

Selling one's account doesn't seem to be against the game rules, as given in the Encyclopaedia (unless by the rule: "it is forbidden [...] to unveil your password to other players"). However, before buying someone's account, beware: you risk losing your money and getting nothing in return.

Fairly recently one of the most powerful players sold his account; the new owner took over the account, and began to settle in. He switched to another clan, and had a very different approach to the game. Suddenly, the account switched back to its old clan, and it seemed that the it had reverted to its original owner. We're now told that the account owner had sold the account, then - having received the asking price - demanded more money before handing it over. After this successful extortion, he then went to the admins, somehow convinced them that his account had been hijacked, and got back control, leaving the buyer out of pocket and with nothing to show for it.

We have no way of checking this claim; it fits the facts, but so would many other explanations. Still, true or not, it serves as a useful warning: don't buy another player's account! The sort of person who sells an account is likely to be less than honest and honourable, and you're asking for trouble if you trust such a person.

[Fizulij]

How can admins 'buy' the talk that the original owner/scammer/cheater 'sold' them?

From the info that I have, the 'transfer' of the account didn't happen at once. The original cheater had agreed with a new owner on the price, and even generously offered to 'teach' a new owner a few things before letting him have a complete control.
After receiving the asked price, he gave a password, and went on to give a new owner a few 'lessons'. It lasted for a week or two, for God's sake!
And then, the cheater suddenly starts to mention that additional money might be needed, obviously trying to steal as much as he can. Since he thought he could get away with it (I don't even wanna know if he has some help inside, among admins), he offered a mail pass as well, obviously being so full of himself, thinking that he could get away with all that.
I guess, a buyer panicked then, since he had already trusted a cheater with a nice amount of money, and then probably promised to give some more, but only after he got full control.

So... what happened? The cheater went to admins and told them he got 'hacked' and his account got stolen? Really? After 2(!) weeks of playing on that account from 2 different ip addresses? And the cheater never bothered to report to admins that someone else is playing on his account? Why is that? Maybe to give him chance to steal more money?
Why don't admins check the whole story? Why don't they check the ip addresses? Is it possible that the cheater has some inside help from admins, so he was sure he could get his account back? Is it possible that he even shared a bit of that money with someone from inside? :-/

I don't play this game for money, but if I did... hearing this kind of bull* would make me really mad. And what if I ever thought about starting over, and maybe invest some money into this game? After this?

Admins... really?

:-/


Respect to all honest players and people in this game, I've met quite a few of them.

But since this game is played for real money, a lot of cheaters/multiboxers/you_name_it aren't playing fair. What did you expect, admins? The real money is involved... people cheat in real life. So you have to protect honest and fair players in this game.

I hope this situation will not end here. I hope you will correct this, and make it right. So people who think about investing their own money into this, and help you earn your paycheck, will feel they have a safe and fair environment.


Sincerely Yours, Fizulij.

[Atlantis1]

The best bet here is for the person who tried to but the account to contact his bank, credit card issuer, paypal or whoever carried out the transaction and try to get the transaction reversed

Buying any game account is usually a bad idea unless the facility to do so is provided for by the game or it's owners. Even if the account owners does follow through and hands the account over to you, pretty much every game I've seen has rules against the selling of the account or items for real cash or anything else of value outside of the facilities provided by the game itself, usually specifying that any account that does so will be banned so if this game follows the same type of rules the admins should actually be banning the account that had been sold assuming they can prove that the account actually was sold. If they can't prove that it was sold then it would be entirely proper of them to have given the account back to the original owner since they can't prove that it was handed over willingly they obviously can't prove it wasn't hacked. Even if it doesn't have a specific rule against selling the account they probably do have one about sharing the password or letting someone else have access which would usually allow for accounts given away to be banned.

The terms and conditions tend to be a massive wall of text that people never read but a quick search found the following term which I've posted below and probably covers selling the account although if you wanted to argue you could try arguing that selling the account itself isn't covered by the rule although since the account includes things that are any court almost certainly would rule against that or at the very least allow for the items actually covered not to be included in the transfer so by arguing it you may possibly get the actual account but not the cities, black gems, heroes etc actually in the game which is probably what people would buy it for unless it had a really cool name or something.

4. The Game User is prohibited from performing the following actions with any in-game objects, values, services, in-game currency without the personal permission from the Possessor of Rights:

exchange of any in-game objects, values, services, in-game currency for any real-world values;
sale of services outside of the game and / or for real-world values, including cash;
purchase of services outside of the game and / or for real-world values, including cash;
distribution of information about the user's intension to commit the above mentioned actions both by the User and by any third party.

[Fizulij]

- - - - - B< - - - - - [cut!]

4. The Game User is prohibited from performing the following actions with any in-game objects, values, services, in-game currency without the personal permission from the Possessor of Rights:

exchange of any in-game objects, values, services, in-game currency for any real-world values;
sale of services outside of the game and / or for real-world values, including cash;
purchase of services outside of the game and / or for real-world values, including cash;
distribution of information about the user's intension to commit the above mentioned actions both by the User and by any third party.

Thx Atlantis, for your input.

In this quote you gave, who is a "Possessor of Rights"? MyLands company?

How come I find very often public signatures, where original owners are saying that they are selling the account? I've come across that more than a few times. I mean, even right now, as I write this, the top ranked account on the server has a public tag on itself, notifying others that the account is for sale, even mentioning the price. Since all this stuff is public, and I've heard a lot about top ranked accounts switching their owners... I mean, all this action clearly states that selling an account is not forbidden, right?
What am I missing here?

And you were saying about needing a proof that the account was actually sold, not hacked... should 2 weeks time of playing on two different ip addresses mean anything to somebody? Launching missions, switching clans(!), and who knows what else... and the original owner/cheater never makes a ticket to admins about his account being 'hacked'? I mean, really!? Two weeks!? With everyday log-ins!?

This all is so ridiculous to me, that I can't even fathom how anybody who solved this case believed that account was stolen.

I'll try not to write until someone takes another look into this, and check the facts again. Because if I do, I might get real angry with words. :)

[Ephialtis]

[...] I mean, even right now, as I write this, the top ranked account on the server has a public tag on itself, notifying others that the account is for sale, even mentioning the price. Since all this stuff is public, and I've heard a lot about top ranked accounts switching their owners... I mean, all this action clearly states that selling an account is not forbidden, right?
What am I missing here? [...]

I hadn't noticed that. $499 or nearest offer! You're right; there's no attempt to hide it, so the people involved obviously know that the admins don't intend to enforce the rules.

[Atlantis1]

The rules seem to not allow the selling of your account without the permission of mylands but I agree with you that it is odd there are so many accounts using the 2 lines available for the slogan to advertise there account for sale, it does seem that mylands may not actually be enforcing this rule, possibly due to the account actually using black gems to buy premium since an account without any active premium is probably unsellable so the admins may not want to ban an account that is spending money. It may however just be a case of nobody actually complaining so they don't know about it since I'm guessing they don't go looking for people advertising their account so if nobody complains they may not know. People may not be complaining because they don't see anything being done and the admins may not be doing anything since they don't know there is a problem since nobody has reported. It would be useful if the admin actually stated what there position on selling or even advertising accounts for sale actually is.

I would like to know what actually happens with the account that is currently being complained about although since I don't think I've seen the name mentioned it isn't possible for me to see what it's current status is so I'll have to rely on what is posted on the forum.

You could also try putting pressure on the account seller by contacting his alliance and trying to get him booted, any good alliance shouldn't want somebody dragging their name through the mud, personally I'd quit any alliance that would rather keep somebody like that in if it could be reasonably proved that he had sold or likely sold his account and then claimed it had been stolen. If you could get some of the bigger players in the area to apply pressure on him by continuously trying to catch his army that might help convince the player to actually hand the account over or give a refund. It would probably be difficult to get the other big players to help out though since they probably don't have any interest in who has the account and therefore may not be willing to risk their troops, especially given the selling player is apparently one of the biggest on the server. It would be nice however if the players actually put pressure on cheats if he admins don't but unfortunately self interest seems to stop that from happening.

[ZenZephyr]

You should in my opinion be able to sell your account, it's a good thing for the game and for players who have put in time and effort.

The 'story' going around is the buyer was totally ripped off. More worrying is that admin helped him do it so maybe arbash needs to clarify that and an admin also needs to clarify the whole issue about buying and selling accounts.

Surely the dude who was buying it has e-mails and bank transactions? At least he should get his money back if the story is accurate.

[Ephialtis]

I suppose that if the rules allowed selling accounts I'd have nothing against the idea in principle... though buying a fully-developed account seems to me to be a peculiarly un-fun way of playing a game. Like collecting stamps by just buying an album with all of them already in it.

[Arbash]

how shall we know whether an account was hijacked or sold. If we get a complaint the account has been hijacked, we ask both "new and old" owners to answer special questions and check changes in ip address. If the answers are right and ip provides evidence of hijacking the assign account to the one who complained about hijacking. Any transaction bills or whatsoever are of little help, because we do not know who the the initial owner of the account was. Moreover it`s not stated in any transaction bill what was payed for. Any Skype messages are of no use as well, because they do not provide clear connection between the person whop owns the account and who writes in Skype. So serious, my advice - DO NOT BUY ANY ACCOUNTS.

[ZenZephyr]

Arbash

That's not really a very helpful answer.

So you're saying you investigated it and even though there was Skype e-mail and electronic evidence your tracking or administrative systems doesn't protect either the user or the buyer.

Is that right?

Also you don't say if it is allowed or not. Is it allowed to buy/sell an account??

Why not set something up, where you the admin oversee such a transaction? It could add to the game if buying and selling accounts was done in a correct and professional way. more players are likely to invest money in their cities and heroes if they know at the end they can sell their accounts without all this shady confusion.

To me that makes good business sense.

[Arbash]

How can you be serious about skype/mail? I can create two accounts in the Skype/mail, called Jim and Jack, and write to myself as if I were two persons. After that I may show those messages to support team and say that Jim is actually ZenZephyr and Jack is me and as you can see from those messages I payed and bought his account. Get serious, skype/mail is not an evidence.

I don`t know for sure why we do not encourage and provide selling accounts (maybe some law restrictions or something else)

SELLING / BUYING ACCOUNTS IS FORBIDDEN

[Ephialtis]

Yet people openly offer their accounts for sale, in the game (as well as offering other services for cash, such as Healers to be killed for experience). This is why there's confusion; on the one hand selling accounts is said to be forbidden; on the other hand nothing is done about enforcing the rule. The result is that only the dishonest take advantage of it, while honest players lose out.

As for the specific case that started this thread: it's not impossible to check Skype accounts (and they're not always of the "Jim" and "Jack" type; mine is in my real name, as are many other people's), and if payment can be shown to be made, the first player ought to be asked why they accepted payment from someone who then "hijacked" their account. In any case, the account changed hands, and no complaint was made until some time afterwards. Not only has the player benefitted from selling his account when it's against the rules, but he's got the admins to collude with cheating the person to whom he sold it.

[Fizulij]

Ok... now I have to be harsh a bit.

I'm talking on behalf of a friend, the one who got robbed. I will talk the facts I know, from my perspective, and for additional info I asked him to come through if his number gets called.


First of all, I understand that no Skype conversations can be taken as a proof, since yes, identities matter, and they are hard to prove. That also includes mail, and even in game chat since it's not impossible to successfully deceive someone by replying to his messages, editing what was previously said, and then forward to admins his last reply.

So I will talk about facts that can easily be checked, and offer logic and sense.


A friend wanted to buy that account, since he really liked this game, and since he heard one of the most powerful accounts are for sale. I'm guessing the current account would be given away, since it's not under subscription, either to a friend or a roommate, or whatever. It doesn't really matter. All I knew is that no in-game actions between these to accounts would happen, because he didn't want to risk losing the account for which he is about to pay real money.
He knew those kind of things bring a lot of risks, but when he talked to the original owner he decided to go through with it. He trusted that player.

First sign of a 'trust' was making alliance between those to players, so the buyer can check what he is buying. Those things, you can easily check. I think that for every specific action made to arrange the transfer, corresponding Skype conversation can be provided. You will have to admit that those kind of things would be nearly impossible to forge, because of time logs and everything.
Then, since a friend wanted to keep the ability to withdraw money (I guess he was planing to continue investing into that account), it was mutually agreed to check with admins if that is going to be possible. So the mail was sent to admins that the original owner will be moving to another country. Now, I don't think it was that necessary, since we never found anywhere(!) the proof that buying/selling accounts is not tolerated. After all... a lot of top accounts have switched owners a couple of times already, and a numerous public tags can be seen on strong accounts that they are available for sale.
My guess is that the mail has been sent because there were situations where accounts lost withdrawal ability because withdrawal was disable for some ips (Russian, i.e.). You can check that mail in your archives.
When the decision was made to go through with the sale, a friend paid the asked amount. He has a banknote. He was given a password. Skype log is hopefully saved with corresponding times. You can check those facts.
But a friend didn't get full control (mail account), because he was to be given lessons on how to play the account, since it is immensely demanding account to play. It dragged for a few days... for a week or two. And that account was slowly changing the way of play. It added new allies, ofc. It added a new substitute, ofc. It switched clans, ofc. Have in mind, that it is a very demanding and time consuming account to play with. And for those two weeks (maybe more, maybe less, don't know the real number myself), it was played by two players, from two different ip addresses. One was learning, making some plays, the one was watching over, keeping things on top, correcting things (I don't know exactly, that is my guess). Still... no full control.
And then... additional money is being mentioned. A friend panicked, ofc, and promised to give, but required full control first, being afraid he would lose everything. The original owner gave mail, finally.

So... what happened then? A friend got that new account soon banned for a day, reason 'multiboxing'. Our guess is the original owner got mad he didn't get more money, or maybe that was his plan all along - get as much as he can, and then immediately complain to get the ownership back. We don't know.

I asked a friend what's going on. He said nobody contacted him about anything. No contact from admins, he said he'll just wait the day so the admins can check and allow the account back in. After 24 hrs, account got banned for additional 3 days, no reason cited. Ok, this isn't good, we thought... He paid a lot of money, only to get that account disabled, and started losing troops. A few friends tried to help with the cities, but not much could be done.

After 3 days, when the account was enabled again, I talked to him again, and he was depressed... he said he can't log in, he doesn't have control of the account. He never(!) heard from admins.

And that is the story. A lot of these facts can be checked by you, admins. A friend can give you additional answers that you might ask. But this is it.


Now admins, pls tell me this... what did the original owner complain about? Did he say the account got hacked and stolen? When did he realize the account got hacked? Someone sending his troops on a mission wasn't peculiar enough to him? Replacing and adding allies... he considered as some kind of a bug? What about clan switching... oh, I get it... he must've thought he had been drunk the night before. And it lasted for days!
The strongest account in the game... who doesn't let anything happen on the whole map without him knowing it. And still, regular log-ins from original ip address of the account!?

That account is very hard to play, demanding to keep afloat... and it has been played by original owner and the buyer for quite some time simultaneously. You can check those facts.

Why did the original owner prolong it so much? Don't know, don't care. Maybe he thought he can extract more money, maybe not. They talked about the sale, the price was initially agreed, and a friend trusted first with his own money.

I gave you the story... feel free to check what you can. Additional info can be provided by the buyer. How are you planning to solve this? I don't know.
My friend needs to get something out of this. Either a refund, or the account. The original owner shouldn't be left with the ability to do this same thing to another player. Hoping he hadn't done it already before.


Thanks to all who read all this. I am sorry it wasn't more concise, but I hope I gave enough facts and that they all can be checked. Please admins, do it, for the benefit of this game.

[Ephialtis]

It looks as convincing as you could hope for, to me. Much, if not most, of the facts can be checked -- many of them are clearly already known by admins. So what on Earth is going on?

Anyway, I have to run; Templiers members are hysterically attacking one of my cities, with no hope of gain -- apparently just vindictiveness. I can't imagine why.

[shonnydell]

most of the gaming community was already aware this was happening, so admin should investigate this fairly and properly.

and watching from the outside, seeing the head of a very large clan, leave and join another clan suggests there is some truth in this matter


has there been any further developments?

[Fizulij]

has there been any further developments?

Nothing. :/


No one contacted me, no one contacted the friend.

I'm still waiting to hear what explanation the original owner gave when he was complaining, and I'm still waiting to hear what kind of mechanism will be put in place to prevent such things from happening.

For now... I'd just like that, at least, the original owner gets banned until he gives back the amount that he stole. :(

[Fizulij]

Arbash, any update on this?

What did the original owner tell you in the end? Do the facts that you can check match his story?

[Ephialtis]

The culprit is now temporarily banned, presumably for some other infraction. I've asked in another thread about how many times these people are allowed to get away with cheating before they get banned permanently; no answer yet, and I suspect that in fact the answer is unpalatable. They won't get banned (especially if they pay). They continue, knowing that they probably won't get caught -- and that, when they do get caught, nothing much happens to them anyway.

[Fizulij]

Long time, no hear from anyone...

Anyway, I realise I can't fight against windmills. I doubt anything will change regarding this topic.

All I know is that I'm trying to advise people, not to input their money into this, since I feel it's not a safe environment. I tell them about my experience, and what they can expect.


Maybe someday things will change. Highly unlikely, but still... maybe. Until then, I encourage people to wait, if they say they think about investing some money into this.

Y'all honest players here... have fun & take care. (=

[Arbash]

That`s a lot to read)

Once again
1. Selling/buying accounts is forbidden.
2. We do not investigate whether someone got payed and for what. We are simply not empowered to do so.
3. If the old owner claims his account was hijacked and ip provides evidence for that the account will be returned to the previous owner, unless the new owner has ingame messages stating the account was really sold.

Please, do not buy any accounts! Never ever. Don`t let other players foul you.

[KarsaOrlong]

I am just a newb, but...

If I was the number 1 player on a server, and I would sell my account for a big amount of money... (don't know what kind of money needs to be invested to become number 1, but lets say 3000 euro) I get my money, and I hand over me account. I even sends PM's to people ingame, and I make posts on the boards, that I sold my account...

1 day after the new owner has full controll, I will send a message to the admins: Hey guys, I just sold my account, and I heard it wasn't allowed. I got 50 euro's for it. Please be so kind, and return the account to me, and I will make sure the new owner gets his 50 euro's back...

Since it's not allowed, the admins have to give the account back to me, OR ban/remove the account. In any case, I have money, and the person who bought the account, will be seriously screwed. I can only win.

Your opinion about this please.

[Ephialtis]

I agree. Someone else has just sold his account; it got a temporary ban for multiboxing (as the new owner took it over), but then it'll be back under new management. Amazing how often it seems to happen. The problem is that multiboxers get such a tiny punishment that there's no deterrent.

[tawiti]

my land is not putting right people on the job dat is for sure - or maybe worse, inside trading

why do admin n airbrush uphold the rules so much - rules are meant to be twisted n broken, dat is normal, why coz people got power to think

ask ur accountants for dat fact

pity the person who lost money n trust on this game system

my land plz do not dream of making this game big if u got no big heart/ attitude

since money is involve plz think along the line of banking without banking style security, lol

tough hope

this game growth truly depends on ur ability to handle probs

u can do it if u put ur mind to it